Sam

I'm not saying anything new or profound here, of course. More than anything, I'm simply agreeing with you on this point. Both outcomes have costs. In some ways consumers do have fewer choices, even if they have more purchasing power. I'm not sure how to strike the right balance, other than to outright ban Wal-Mart's, as I believe has actually happened in some communities.

I don't believe we should have a central government plan for this, I think everything can be solved locally if the resources are there. I do find it interesting that those who can't tolerate a large ominous central government, will tolerate large ominous mega corporations.

Wal-mart is the perfect example. They are able to provide cheap food because of their sources and because of their distribution network. But because they are not local, they often don't have the best interests of their community in mind the way a local business would. You see this in the way they treat their employees and in the way they squeeze out local competitors. it's pretty hard to be a small business owner in a Wal-mart town because you can't compete. That may be the free market at work, but i'm not sure it is the kind of society we want, because it lacks choice, both for the consumer and for the worker.

Second — poor people lacking access to fresh foods, especially in ghettos. This is a tragedy and I don't know what the immediate answer is. But again, to Sam's point, food prices get cheaper over time in real terms. Wal-Marts now offer full-lines of groceries at low prices. Food itself is not unaffordable. If the problem is the system of distribution, I don't have the answer to that. But it's probably not a problem of small farms vs. agri-business.

Finally — Agri-business making money and the bottom line. Agreed, they are trying to make money. But the profit motive, while not ideal, is the best mechanism we have of distributing goods and services. Sorry to play Adam Smith here, but that's exactly the point. Many places and societies have tried other mechanisms. Most of them have failed, and many horribly (millions died/starved under Stalin, Mao, and currently in North Korea). I'm sure you could say there's a happy medium. Perhaps. But I haven't yet been convinced on the specifics of what that happy medium is. Archer-Daniels-Midland is far from perfect, but it uses the price mechanism to feed a lot of people, with results that could be much, much worse. I will have to read your article about Monsanto now. I don't doubt that they've committed some atrocities. I've also read analysis that says their innovations have and will enabled more food to get to more people. I'm sure there's some good and some bad, as in most things.

1. agreed
2. Likely true, but it shouldn't happen to even one person, should it?
3. The stories go way beyond what I posted earlier. Have you read the Vanity Fair article i posted above? Try this on for size: Monsanto in the dark of night spreads their own genetically modified seeds onto private small family farms. When their patented crops turn up on thos family farms, Monsanto sues the farmers out of business for patent infringement, gobbles up their land, and further cements their monopoly. It's not just crackheads that are victimized, it's ordinary folks. Real people, not stats. Predatory monopolies answer to no one, not even government. IT HAS TO STOP.
4. This is a common argument. “Slave labor is better than starving to death.” I don't have a response, I can't purport to know what is in the best interest of someone else. I can only point out what i think is a disgrace, and hope that there is a better way that doesn't involve these mega corporations who, in many cases, don't value human life.
5. Have you ever lived in a poor neighborhood and shopped in the area? In many, if not most, there is a dire lack of fresh produce. Some ghettos have none. ZERO. In Cleveland i used to have to drive almost an hour to get an apple that wasn't rotten. Access to fresh food does not exist in many poor areas. FACT
6. I am not blanketly indicting big business, I am lamenting the monopolies under which we now live. I'm sure you would agree that monopolies are not healthy for the economy. Banking, agribusiness, it is everywhere. It is not good for us. So don't try to twist my arguments and paint me with the broad brush strokes that satisfy your desire to see everything as left and right. it is more complicated than that and you know it.
7. It all has to come back to France, doesn't it. Very sad. Why don't you try meeting some poor people and see how they live. it has nothing to do with France, dude. People are starving RIGHT NOW, not in ten years. Agri-business is not trying to feed the world, they are trying to make money, like any other business. They don't give a shit about you or I or anyone, just their bottom line and their shareholders. END OF STORY.

1. Farming, labor practices, and animal slaughtering can and should be done in a more humane manner.
2. My instinct tells me that despite some sensational stories, these practices have tended to get better over time, not worse.
3. It always makes good press to write a story about orange pickers suffering from arthritic castration and getting paid in crack cocaine. But to say “Archer-Daniels-Midland responsibly fed [x] billion people this year” — well, that headline isn't so exciting, and probaly doesn't make a good story on 20/20 or whatever evening news program.
4. Agricultural work in the 3rd world cannot be appealing work. It is undoubtedly brutal in many cases. I feel priveleged to not have to do it. But for a lot of those workers — what is their better option? I'm not sure it would improve their lives if the US stopped trading with 3rd world nations, and simply decided to grow everything in-house.
5. I don't think Sam was saying McDonald's is the only affordable option. A dinner of broccoli, rice, and chicken breast is a great dinner. Who is saying that poor people don't have access to this? Most any poor person in the US does have access to this. If they choose McD's instead, that's lamentable, but that's not the point here.
6. If it weren't for modern agricultural innovations — innovations developed by BIG BUSINESS — then many, many millions of people around the world would have starved, who are now alive.
7. If further agricultural innovations – like genetically modified food – are not adopted soon, en masse — over the ojections of whiny liberal countries like France, then many many millions more people around the world WILL STARVE in the future, many of them poor people in the 3rd world. This is a sad, but true, demographic reality.

End of story.

http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/200...

Tyson pays their workers minimum wage, and the workers last for a year before they get carpal tunnel syndrome from cutting the same chicken parts 8 hours per day. They have been punished and even fired for leaving their stations to use the bathroom. The average poultry worker in Indiana (for example) makes less than 30k and that includes management. The laborers make far less than that. And the birds are often contaminated with salmonella and fed antibiotics which, when consumed by humans, contribute to the mutation and creation of super-bugs that cannot be killed.

Did you know that there are Mexican, Central American, and ex-cons both black and white living in indentured servitude on factory farms throughout the South? The immigrants cannot leave their jobs because they will be deported if they do. And the ex-cons face a life of parole and no job opportunities and choose to sign contracts that keep them virtually enslaved on the farm. Some of the farms even employ prison labor in shady deals to sell cheap produce to local restaurants.

These are real costs that our society just can't bear.

I would encourage you to read up a little here:

http://www.splcenter.org/legal/guestreport/inde...

here:

http://www.hsus.org/farm/resources/research/env...

and here:
http://www.satodayscatholic.com/042806_ModernDa...

“Traffickers have been extremely creative in achieving their ends, he said. Notable was a case in which hundreds of farm workers from Mexico and Central America were smuggled over the Arizona border, where they were met by buses with mechanics aboard to ensure speedy repair of any breakdowns on the way to Florida.

In Florida the Ramos brothers, former fruit pickers themselves, moved 700 slave laborers from field to field and state to state for two years. The workers fell victim to the same debt servitude, being charged for their daily rides out to the fields and the tools they used. They slept on concrete floors in labor camps surrounded by barbed wire (placed to keep them in) with locks on the outsides of doors and windows. This, noted Coonan, was a good clue that these laborers were being held against their will.
Other indicators of forced labor are observing domestic help who never leave their employer’s house or German shepherd dogs guarding farm laborers’ quarters, he said.”

“In another Florida case, human traffickers recruited crack-addicted men from homeless shelters, keeping them in virtual bondage picking oranges. The men were paid in crack cocaine and beaten the rest of the time to keep them working.”

That is just the tip of the iceberg. Is it okay for one human to be in modern day slavery? No it is not. It is not about being a bleeding heart. It is about understanding the basic economic truth that these prices you laud result in death. That is non-negotiable, it is fact. There is nothing radical about saying that. These cases have been reported on 60 Minutes and 20/20 and other news magazines and then simply forgotten. The solution is to enforce the law, end slavery in America, and take away the advantages that these large farms have (with lobbying, forced labor, environmental dumping). They need to be forced out of business so we can have real competition between many small farmers and bring prices down naturally.

Also, Sam, it is vitally important that we as a society, think about our society itself and what it should look like. I am aware that chicken that is 50 cents cheaper can be a big deal to some people. So let's make it 50 cents cheaper without all the horrible social, environmental, and health costs. It can be done.